EP47: Peak Car Traction Control

Jon Summers is the Motoring Historian. He was a company car thrashing technology sales rep that turned into a fairly inept sports bike rider. On his show he gets together with various co-hosts to talk about new and old cars, driving, motorbikes, motor racing, motoring travel.

• Image: Toyota_7
• Karting: K1 electric; KFX Rotax 2 stroke
• The Art of the Block Pass
• Mansell vs. Senna at Monaco
• ‘02 Mercedes E55 comes out of a year long sliumber
• California 130, Patterson to San Jose via the James Lick Observatory
• ‘19 Mercedes E63S lunching its motor
• Peak car was when?
• M’s eulogy on his Nissan 350Z
• Grand Canyon by Mustang
• M’s Grand Canyon tour advice
• Diving into the Grand Canyon in a helicopter listening to the Conan sound track
• Peak car again
• Chris Harris on the Ferrari F80
• Tech, driver aids and peak car
• Nearly spinning a Mustang, saved by TCS
• Nissan 350Z at Nurburgring saved by TCS
• Racebike TCS
• Toyota Yaris GTR
• What Should I Buy ? pod
• Flipping hot hatches as a business model; Renaults not Peugeots?
• J’s knowledge is in the wrong place of the market – 15k not 5
• AutoScout 24, J’s preferred used car app for mainland europe
• Collector cars always have all the extra gee-gaws which you never saw in period
• Peter Mullin and Collecting French cars
• Di Viriglio Lancia at the Center, by Jeffrey Goldberg
• Integrale vs Skyline is a Pasty vs a steak dinner
• Which Skyline era is right for you ?
• J likes a car with a story
• Toyota 2000 Convertible
• J opines the best bits of it were the Yamaha cylinder heads
• Our black Mondeo ST24, with a Yamaha designed motor
• Mazda Cosmo
• M loves Mazda for pursuing the Wankel
• Toyota Seven
• Toyota Celica GT4 
• Integrale vs Sierra Cosworth

Crew Chief Brad: [00:00:00] John Summers is the motoring historian. He was a company car thrashing technology sales rep that turned into a fairly inept sports bike rider hailing from California. He collects cars and bikes built with plenty of cheap and fast and not much reliable. On his show, he gets together with various co-hosts to talk about new and old cars driving motorbikes, motor racing, and motoring travel.

Jon Summers: Good day. Good morning, good afternoon. It is John Summers, the motoring historian. Today with Mark Gamy. I always open with a little anecdote. Don’t I always come straight to the point now To kidding. You know, keep a pace up and all. We’re always open with a little anecdote this time. Little anecdote, uh, mark features Ollie carting.

We, uh, went and looked at some gas carting over the weekend. That all felt very, very real. [00:01:00] Up at Sonoma, but, uh, earlier in the week, did hiss first like Grand Prix at electric carting due to a, a weird set of circumstances. Let me be candid with what they were. Two sessions where they control these electric carts, they control ’em from the pits, how much power they’ve got, and so for the.

First two or three laps. You can’t really do a fast lap because they don’t wind the power up or the tires aren’t warmer. I don’t know quite. Anyway, whatever. All these fastest laps are always lap five, six, or seven. Well, on this occasion, one of the carts ran out of battery, so they came back into the pits.

And, uh, whilst they were in the pit, um, and they came, so they came back into the pit. So, so there were two short qualifying sessions, so he didn’t really lay down like the best that he could do. And that meant that instead of being in the A main for the actual Grand Prix, he was like in the B but he was on the front row of [00:02:00] the bee.

Mm-hmm. So at the start, the guy on pole chops over on him and he touches the back of the car, loses momentum. Into the second turn, there’s like a shoot down to the second turn. It’s a heaven three abreast with a guy who’s third who’s got a clean start and of that turn, they get through that turn cleanly, but out of that turn, Ollie loses the drag race and is third.

Yep. Pole guy, little guy couldn’t have been more than seven or eight years old, is disappearing off up the track. Ollie is valiantly climbing all over the back of the third place guy. This goes on until lap three. A clean pass is AC between laps three and six. Steady progress is made catching the leaders disappeared up the road and for the last six laps, they weren’t more than two feet apart all the time.

Super clean racing. [00:03:00] The other lad’s parents like couldn’t contain themselves. Like I couldn’t be looking at them because it was that, like it was that year that Manser was leading the Monaco Grand Prix, had to get tires, came out and was all over the back of center, and Cena just had to make no mistakes and center made no mistakes.

But boy did mantle try hard and boy did Ollie try hard. Diddy especially try hard with the back markers. But, um, this other lad crossed the line, a clear half a cart length, a head volley, both of them did their fastest lap on the last lap. Cool. Two really cute podium ceremony and, you know, parents shaking hands and general sort of, uh, of warm feel all around.

And I missed the punchline there as I’m wont to do. Was that. In the park ferme afterwards, the first thing all he did when he got out of his car before coming over to us or removing his helmet, he took his glove off and shook hands with the [00:04:00] guy who’d beaten him. And I said that to him afterwards and on the way home.

He was like, well, yeah, I’d had a really good race. You’d given me a really good race. That’s the best race I’ve ever had at K one. Awesome. So, uh, you know, proud Parent, they’re more partly for the speed and the racing, but of course also for the gentleman you nurse, which, you know, feeds in than to, uh, one wanting to, to do it further.

So, yeah. I’d already planned to sacrifice my Saturday, taking him up to Sonoma to see what was happening there, but I was a whole lot more keen to do it on the, on the back of the performance there. And up at Sonoma, it was this series, KFX, carting. It’s definitely real. These are like rotax carts. I don’t know how fast they go.

The, the stuff online said they do 75 miles an hour. It didn’t look that fast to me, it looked more like 35 or 40. To me. Maybe it’s the nature of the circuit at Sonoma, maybe they had the power turned down for what was meant to be a test day. But yeah, there were kids Ollie’s age and size out there on the track with [00:05:00] like adults.

’cause there’s three series, there’s like a junior series, like a, a teen series and then a masters series for old fogies people older than uh, 32. I was watching um,

Mark Gammie: world Superbikes Today. My brother-in-law, uh, has got a Discovery plus login, which is Motor GP and World Superbikes in the uk. And other stuff they can burn.

All the rest. As far as I’m concerned, it’s mo g being one superbikes that, that, that channel’s four. And the art of the block pass. So you are not quick out, but you are quick in and you position your bike such that the other guy can’t come back out. You afterwards might be a karting thing as well, I suspect so you might want to get him to have a little look ’cause you know what I mean?

Often that it’s about carrying momentum, but for clean passes and stuff, sometimes you have to park it on the apex and be like, I’m lucky son, and then you, you know, you are slow behind me out. Maybe he wants to do a bit of watching a bit of WSB or a bit of motor GP to see how those boys are [00:06:00] doing their passes.

You could probably learn a bit.

Jon Summers: That’s really good advice and, and really useful because, uh, he’s really good with the, uh, with the racecraft and these carts are so wide, especially the, the electric ones. Now, he has found the way to pass people is, is the way guys like. Hamilton or, or path people that you come up and firstly they know, they see how fast you come up.

And then secondly, you do that thing where you like stand off and you look for an opportunity and when you see it, you lunge, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and he’s done, uh, a reasonable job at that over the years. You know, like perfecting that and not getting frustrated. There was one race where he is really frustrated behind somebody, and I was like, that’s the last race where you’re gonna be like that.

You know, in future you’re gonna fall off and come back at him and find another way. Because what he won’t do is always, he’s like Dale, Jr. He won’t, you know, he’s not a ram. Not at all.

Mark Gammie: No. But selling the dummy can also be good. I’m fast here. I’m fast here. And then [00:07:00] being, especially because you remember, um, you remember that race where Alonzo defended against Schumacher for ages and Schumacher came in and came out again, and Alonso did a ridiculously fast in lap in order to keep him behind.

And then for the last 15, 20 laps, he was all over him and he had a faster car and Alonzo would just be deliberately like quick down the straight and then deliberately slow into the skis so Michael couldn’t get him and then was boxed up behind him and then was inevitably, you know, after car length later onto the accelerator and couldn’t get him.

And you’re right, it’s the sort of, I just have to drive perfectly. You can’t get me even though you’ve got a faster car. Because the, the fluff on Mansell and center then was, if I recollect. From people like James Hunt watching it. He was never gonna get him driving like that.

Jon Summers: No.

Mark Gammie: He was all over him, but he wasn’t.

He wasn’t all over him. He didn’t try once Palla in the only place you’ve got and set everything up for that. He was all over him trying to do it in unusual places and all that sort of thing, which was super exciting. I remember the Grand Prix. But Hunt was like, nah, [00:08:00] great, but you ain’t winning it.

Although I think his also fallback position was, it’s Monica, you ain’t winning anyway.

Jon Summers: Yeah, I mean, Ollie had six laps and afterwards Ley discussed the race mourned that he hadn’t had. The three that he would’ve had had there not been further valid point 50%. You, you know what I mean? I’m just like, I’m, I’m just at a stage where if I see him improving in every race, I see his race craft getting better.

And if we are having fun. It’s

Mark Gammie: just, dude, I totally agree and you know, it’s, what I didn’t say is what if I was like, I don’t know, some sort of hardass race coach. It’s like, well, I’m being happy with losings, like a loser’s mentality and like, you know, what do you doing if fucking celebrate in second fuck off with all of that shit?

I absolutely celebrate the sport in that aspect of it. It should be fun.

Jon Summers: So I went to Lodi yesterday and got the E [00:09:00] 55. It’s the first time I think, since probably last August’s run. I went down Modesto and then came home. So I put, I’ve probably put 200 miles on it since, and it’s. Still probably needs a wheelbarrow. It runs really well. Rolled over 162,000 miles. I drove the most awesome road, California one 30 from Patterson West to the James Lick Observatory and then down into San Joe’s, and then, uh, got on the free whistle and drove home.

Basically this observatory overlooks the valley from the view at the top. You can look over the bottom of the bay and Silicon Valley, and I drove over there right as the sun was setting. It was not planned. It was. Absolutely awesome. The road is way too long. I mean, [00:10:00] way too long for you to do it regularly.

I have done it before once on that whole CBR race bike. When I took it out to storage in Sali, just because of the way that the route was. I must have, but it’s too long. It’s like took. Absolutely hours, and it switchbacks with sheer drop off, so you don’t want to be doing it at night. It’s gravel roads, but it’s, it’s also stop for a P at the side of the road, right.

Not only do know cars come by, but there is no sound. And you’re like, wow, I’m in the Bay Area, but I’m not. So that California one 30 was, was really a fine, but my other thought was, so that’s the E 55 running perfectly. Not sure if we talked about this before, but a colleague Dana’s at work has, uh, 2019. E 63 s wagon.

Lovely car. You say [00:11:00] probably was before it needed a new motor at 40,000 miles. What’d he do to it? Well, that’s your thought, isn’t it? It came from Carvana. It was used, it was, you know, certified if that means anything from Carvana. The point is, this is not the first of these incidents with these recent E 63 motors.

I’m not s slate in Mercedes particularly. I am just saying that I do not believe modern cars. Are being made with the same, or cars for the last 10 years have been made with the same integrity of those that have been, that were made in the, at the turn of the century. I used to struggle before up until this last Pebble Beach.

If you’d have said to me, Pete Carr is the year 2000, I’d have said, no, it’s the 1960s. I’m almost now agreeing with the Ed Bullions and the 40 somethings and when I [00:12:00] said that to Ollie for Ollie, it’s like, it’s obvious, right? But think of it, this is my, uh, you know, I’m more of an older generation than me.

We understand why the GTO’s the most valuable car. We even kind of get Dusenberg, the Ed Boian 40 something generation. They. See McLaren’s as awesome and they kind of get the GTO ’cause they kind of get that previous generation. This is my, uh, conjecture. Yeah. But I can, I can sort of go with that.

Mark Gammie: I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s peak car 2000 that’s the question.

I I, it, it would what’s peak car? I mean, it’s like peak car in what category? I mean, because they can’t all be the same in the sense that, you know, if McLaren F1 is peak car, if you like, in terms of supercar. Or ultimate car if you want. You know, that’s not an everyday car. I know it could be used every day, but it’s not practical.

You know, you need to, you need other cars if you’re gonna have something like that. So then you want a peak car in your, I know, hot hatchback territory or peak car in your saloon car territory you [00:13:00] want. So there’s a bunch of horses for courses here. The best car I’ve ever owned is that 2007 Nissan.

Nissan three 50 z. It was the best car in terms and I for this is the best car for another, for Stu, my mate who’s owned one as well and has owned a bunch of other stuff. He would, well, last time I spoke to him, he said it was still the best car he’d ever bought as well. And he’s had Tvrs and all sorts of stuff.

And I think what I’m saying there isn’t so much, it’s the best car is there’s a balance for me. A bit like I was looking, some old photos that we’d taken on holiday, like in the US on road trips and stuff, but in the very early ones and the camera phones aren’t up to it. So the pictures you’ve got from there were taken on the same sort of like, uh, spring day, beautiful sunshine, you know, out and about in the nature.

So there’s great light, but the pictures just aren’t as good a res. And I think it’s the same with cars as well, in terms of the overall experience, because for me, what did that have? It had basic traction control. A nice stereo and just really good rear bias, mechanical grip. Even by that, when we were coming, I think we were coming off the M 50 bit up outta [00:14:00] whale, under the roundabout and the M five and then on the up ramp on, so we were coming on from nine o’clock and then going round and then going onto the m, the M five, going south towards Bristol at six o’clock.

And I remember it was late at night. It was, it’s a well lit, really wide sort of three name wide piece of, um. A road or two lane might at least there was nobody there. And I came round it pretty quick on the, in on, coming into the roundabout ’cause you’ve got a massive long sight line. There’s nowhere there was able to come onto the throttle really early.

’cause it’s uphill on the, on the, on the on ramp. You were surprised at how early and how hard? I could and, and committedly I could come onto the throttle and just stay on it. The Sierra was a, was a, was an amazing car. I didn’t have the horses or, but had fundamentally honest performance, honest sort of chassis characteristics.

But that is that taken to another sort of the exponential up level of usable, everyday practical, not eating you at the petrol tank delivering you, you know, 300 plus horsepower. Although, geez, the geezers them, modified them for me. Reckon they’ve never produced actual 300 horsepower. But it was a chunky toy power.

And it really sort [00:15:00] of gave you what you want. So again, you can go from there and the earlier back you go, you start to lose some of the aids. So how much aids do you want? Do you want to cater ’em from the 1950s with nothing? Or do you want everything like today with parking assist and lane assist and fucking ass wipe assist and all the other bullshit that you have to turn off on, off every time you get in the fucking car?

There’s a happy medium somewhere. And I think it’s very personal what

Jon Summers: that is. Yeah. Well, and and peak car you are right is somewhere in the middle of that. And I guess it’s toggling to where that is. Course the car I had throughout the time that you add that Nissan three 50 is that, oh one bullet Mustang that I’ve done sort of similar miles in that you, well, I’ve done 170,000 miles of madness.

Probably not, no, not as many as you’ve done in there. Um, I’ve done about 75. Yeah. Yeah. You’ve done a lot more in that Nissan. Interestingly about the claimed 300 horsepower not being in real 300 horsepower. I remember when, when we did a Grand Canyon drive, [00:16:00] not long after I had the Mustang, and I remember you commenting then that the seat of the pants feel was not a million miles away, which I’d expected it to be.

’cause that was as stated. 2 75 horse. So I expected that to be less than the Nissans. And I wondered if it was a bit down to the V eight talk with that.

Mark Gammie: Yeah, it could be because

Jon Summers: I, I think that was on

Mark Gammie: the trip when we went to the, was it the Southern Rim job? Grand Grand Canyon. It, it was,

Jon Summers: yeah. Yeah. I, I actually have someone, I dunno where they are, I have photos from, from that trip, but I remember picking you up at the airport and driving out of the airport and being like, fuck Vegas, and finding a pizza place on the edge of Vegas and eating pizza on the trunk of the car before the adventure commenced

Mark Gammie: my own comment on there in the Grand Canyon.

Southern Jo. Having done both banks, if you like, the southern rim is better ’cause you can drive along it for a bit. Yeah. Whereas Northern Rim, it’s pretty, but you have to drive along a bullshit slow, windy road that could be good, [00:17:00] but you know, it’s dead. Endy turnaround stuff. The bits before are quite pretty, especially coming over the hills and stuff.

It’s like you get there, you walk through and there’s loads of like, you know, tat for sale and then you get to view it and then you go away again. Whereas Southern Rim job, you could drive around. Um, hidden joke there obviously, but uh, you could drive around for like miles and stuff and get your own sort of hang on the edge, just chill out on your own quiet Grand Canyon rather than having to share it with thousands of other people.

Jon Summers: Well, of course, the other thing we did on that trip, which I’ve forgotten all about was, uh, the helicopter flight. Oh yeah. And, uh, uh, we should say this, that as lovers of Duns and Dragons and, uh, and yeah, my own d and d campaign very much based on Robert E. Howard and Kona, the barbarian, um, for the helicopter to dive into the Grand Canyon and it’d be playing the music from Cannan the Barbarian at the same time.

That really was a, uh, that really was a me memorable moment, wasn’t it? Yeah, that was cool. Uh, a memorable moment.

Mark Gammie: [00:18:00] Ah. But yeah, we were on peak car when we, before we, uh, wandered off into dragons and the uh, and the Grand Canyon.

Jon Summers: We were on peak car. Yeah, but I, alright, so, but, but let’s come back to where Peak Car isn’t now, is it For sure.

No. I mean, I guess, but did we think of that in 2000? I wonder if we did, because back in 2000, if you’d have asked me what I wanted, like you could have anything, what would you I’d have, I’d have said a gun mail M five.

Mark Gammie: Yeah. I mean, I think you what? You like me like most motoring people, if you’re honest with it yourself.

Would probably, there would be some underlying favorites, some sort of, you know, ACD CS and Slayers and stuff that stay with you permanently, if you like. But there’s also gonna be a new favorite every 18 months as well, in a greater, less extent. ’cause, you know, yeah, yeah. You would say that. But I think you would’ve also said at one point.

Di Ablo SV in orange and stuff like that. I still might say that. Well, exactly. Probably. And again, it’s difficult, isn’t it? Because like modern days, you could [00:19:00] absolutely argue. I watched Chris Harris’s YouTube channel’s review of the F 80, the new Ferrari Ultra car, and I think I sent it to you in Newton.

If you haven’t seen it, go to YouTube and watch it. It’s one of the best drone shot videos. I’ve ever seen of stuff. The new drone pilot he’s got is something special. He’s rinsing it around fiorano in massive tail slides and the drone is hovering 20 feet above the rear tailpipe as he is following it and following him through corners.

The final shot for me, the PA resistance, and I saw that you on this. Chris, if I have a meteor, you I’ll shake your hand for it. His final review of the car is him standing and it’s, it’s a shot that’s obviously Ferrari have told them about. They know about in the hills. Where you can get out and have the car and just the beautiful Italian hillsides behind with nothing else much there.

And the whole video, it’s like a two minute sign off where he talks about the car and the drone flies in a perfect circle all the way round him. So you never see any camera people. He’s just talking to the camera the [00:20:00] whole time turning and talking to the drone all the way round. And it’s a really beautifully, the whole thing is just up personified.

But if you take that car. I don’t like the looks of it much. I think it’s a bit ugly. It doesn’t win in against McLaren. W one in the, you know, the 10-year-old boy poster stakes is losing hands down. But Harris’s review, and I’ve seen, I’ve read a few others, is that it is unbelievable that they have taken what is essentially a, a hypercar and turned it into something you could genuinely, if you were.

Ross Perot’s, Nepo baby. Spend all your time driving around him and maybe that’s why it’s not so good looking so that you can get away with that. That’s so much tech. I mean, it’s gonna have a 20,000 mile service in the book. So much tech. It’s gonna have a 20,000 mile. What? No, no. I say it’s not gonna have a 20,000 mile service in the book, is it?

There’s so much tech. Everything in it is tech and tech and tech. But that’s too much for me. Well, where, where do you pair back to? Because, you know, I think you would accept that the go-karts and the caters and the sort of re, you know, the sort of cars of our childhood, if you like, where [00:21:00] TCS quo, what I mean?

No, what’s that?

Jon Summers: Well, I, I remember when Traction Control first came out feeling like it was. Somehow not the real thing. It was almost like, it was like a different version of automatic, it was very similar to automatic transmission. It was like you weren’t really involved, but it was also, it was like, it was almost like, I tell you what, it was the beginning of your mom riding with you in the car, and so are you sure you wanna do that?

Just slow down there. It was the beginning of that, wasn’t it? It really was. It, it, it’s sort of been there passively before with seat belts even with Understood. But it really came with traction control. Uh, the whole notion that it could be switched off. I was relieved the fact that it could be switched off ’cause it meant you could still smoke the tires.

I also thought of how sort of pointless it was, and it frightened me that the only reason you could switch it off was because they knew that [00:22:00] people like us liked to burn the tires and they knew that the motoring rider would slate the cars. And therefore people wouldn’t buy them if they left that off.

If, if that was how we felt about traction control, where the fuck have we got it? Like, fuck it off. Well, yeah, but I will say, and and I, I, I, you could, I’m, I’m not saying I feel like that about traction control. No, no, no, for sure. But I drove a piece of freeway just yesterday where as I came onto it, I was like, oh, there is an undulation in the middle of this OnRamp because.

In the Mustang with traction control and terrible tires and a slightly damp road. I had a moment where the traction control saved me, and this was, this is a long time ago, five years ago. I was driving over to Lodi. It was whilst I was living here, it wasn’t ages and ages ago. It was fairly recently. You know, the tires that were bald, I’ve only just come off the car kind of thing.

Mm-hmm. Um, but it was a while ago. On the car ball for a really long time, I should say not bald, but [00:23:00] just, you know, you could see the tread pattern and kind of feel it, but not completely, you know, it was like, it was like, and, and it’s rear ties and it’s a Mustang and you expect it to be a bit loose, and I drive slow and all of that, right?

So, and the ones at the front have got good tread for the aquaplaned, and that’s the way I, I tend to structure. The, uh, rear wheel drive cars that I have, but, uh, well, I was going somewhere with that. TCS saved you. Oh, undulation. Yeah, dude, I can, I can ul Well, ululation live rear end the TCS and, and the thought was that in a fox Mustang, the previous generation, the same car basically, but just with a different body, I would’ve bloody spun.

Dude, I mean, when I, we drove,

Mark Gammie: we, we, on my stag dude, when we went to the berg gr I left the TCS off on, and when we went out for the first lap, and you remember how wet it was, I had Matt in the car and on about corner 10 or 12, you know, we threw that first little twisty complex, the back step by about [00:24:00] 18 inches, two feet.

And I remember thinking I’m, I was going slow enough that I didn’t think that was gonna happen. And it just sort of stayed out. And I remember thinking, don’t overcorrect. Just don’t overcorrect. I don’t want any snapback shit, don’t overcorrect. And it came back in and I remember thinking at the time, where were you TCS?

I think to be fair, TCS was going, saving your ass right there. You know, it just eased out of the gas. I was ca on the gas. But having that safety net is quite nice. And on the flip side, the only thing I would say is if you look at bikes. Anything that goes off road, if it’s gonna be serious off road, you need to be able to turn the traction control off anyway.

And you need to be able to turn the a BS off often if it’s gonna be a proper dirt bike O off the road. So they have to be switchable. And if you look at the other end of the scale on the latest Pali V four s. Crazy ape shit, track weapon, which you can obviously, you know, buy and drive on the road. Um, ’cause that’s motorbikes, it’s got effectively sort of Ducati’s answer, which I, as I recollect Ferrari’s at side slip control sort of thing, where you can have the it so that coming onto the [00:25:00] gas straight, you can just rip the gas and if you get a little bit of slide out, shimmy, it’s like, yeah, no problem guy, I got you.

It’s just delivering. Its 230 horsepower, like band’s eye style. Anyway, as you get onto your heaven scent Track day at Magie, so you can deliver thrills with it as well. I accept that that isn’t really relevant to cars so much, but I wouldn’t be surprised if, well, the Ferrari will certainly have, so you see what I mean?

It is just in bikes, it’s so much more accessible cash wise for everyone it was ever this. But yeah, I mean look, safety AIDS broadly cool nanny state aids broadly shit, and they’re always gonna overlap. And regulation in the EU has certainly pushed us to more one way. So, yeah, I’m less and less interested in anything new.

The only car I can think of in the last five or six years that I’ve thought I, or you know, more than that probably now that I actually, yeah, more than that. ’cause they’re one second generate now. But I thought I would genuinely like that. It’s been, come out, it’s pretty cool. Was from, of all people Toyota and it’s the Yaris GTR, which is the little paired down two seat, [00:26:00] well, two plus two ’cause like the rear seat.

So like the roof’s been squished down. Four wheel drive, rally version of the, of the, of it with like 280 horsepower. That the press and I look like the look of and the reviews were all five star reviews all. That’s kind of exciting ’cause it’s again, taking the tech and turning it into sort of exciting scuba evo from our youth kind of excitement.

Four wheel drive trickery for you to go faster on B roads in wet whales. That appeals to me. I like the idea of that. Although whales is increasingly becoming a 30 or 20 zone car carpet teared across the country. So, you know, maybe, maybe not Wales, you still have the M two or is that gone? Another curse.

It’s going soon. So I’ve got the the last couple of bits to do it to get done. Then I can just get short of it.

Oh, that’s the other thing about this new place. It’s got a little late, they got gravel bit path down the side of the house with a side gate and a garage. I mean, at a push. I reckon I [00:27:00] could get six cars on the drive and one in the garage. Your neighbors will love you. Well, but the thing is like, it doesn’t impinge on them ’cause down the side of our house.

Dude, let’s

Jon Summers: do this. Flipping hot hatches. Yeah, yeah. No, we should. I, I did on this pod a what should I buy from 25 years ago, we were talking about peak car being 25 years ago. There is a market for these hot hatches and. I believe that cars and bids and so on, they’ve done the T. They’re all excited about the Euro spec, Mercedes and Volkswagens and all that.

We don’t need to do that. Go to France, sniff me out a X GTS and. 4 0 5 MI 16, four by fours. Sniff them out for us. Fill a shipping crate and I’ll sell ’em here.

Mark Gammie: Why don’t you, because I’ve time at the moment in terms of searching for stuff online. Why don’t you dig out that spreadsheet we’ve got, I’ve got it somewhere.

Where we scoped out like best cars to buy from eras and [00:28:00] stuff. And then let’s just highlight the sort of stuff we’re gonna search for because I can just like use it as a sort of spreadsheet. If we share it up on the link thing. Yeah, we can just use it as like stuff we find and just shove costs in there.

And I mean, I’m not in any financial position to buy anything at the moment, but I mean, I am available as an agent to perform these tasks. So if we have the information, then we can take a decision from there, can’t we? Because I think there’s gonna be some stuff that we think will be there that won’t. Uh, and I think it’s gonna be idiosyncratic stuff that’s our best win, if I’m honest.

You know, again, and also the one where there was a lot of them, so like Cleo one seven twos, Cleo one eight twos, those sort of things. There was a lot of those things, you know, and they were cracking hot hatches. They were always like four and a five star hot hatches. And they’re small and cute and there’s enough of them that you can get parts for them.

Whereas I think finding things like 3 0 9, 2 0 5, 3 0 9 GTIs, they’ve all gone. You are too late for that. But, and I think even now you probably find stuff like, you’ll still find the dogeared 1 8 2 trophies and things like that, but they’re all still gonna be like [00:29:00] 15 grand now. Whereas I think the standard one eight twos, or maybe even if you can find one a, 1 8, 2 cup, those things you can, and you could always remember, you could always do the cup chassis on the standard 180 2 of was like a 1500 quid option.

So if it was selected, it’s selected. And that was the big uplift. That was why it was the uplift on my one, that trophy I had, which was a fucking brilliant car. See,

Jon Summers: I think. Here’s a, here’s a sweet spot. There is a flip side to, you know how in Sweden, they don’t care whether the muscle car’s got two doors or four doors, whereas here in America, like a four-door car’s always a parts car, whereas they just have a completely different attitude at home.

The difference between a Fiat Strata 1 0 5 TC and one 30 TC is nine and day right. It really matters. The difference between an XR three I and a. RS Turbo is huge here. That difference, there’s not the same. And what I’m struck by the cars and bids guys, they like the Basey [00:30:00] ones, a 4 0 5 diesel wagon.

Nobody’s ever seen one of those before. That PDI motor never goes wrong, which Americans absolutely love the notion of the thing that, you know, that would be, that’s interesting. Yeah. Those kind of cars would be something that Now the challenge, the challenge with, with all of the things that I know about, of course, is it all exists in this sub five grand marketplace, and I think shipping wise, by the time you paid for the flat costs of, you know, the shipping and the importation fees and that kind of stuff.

You need to be looking at 10, 15, 20 grand cars rather than 500. I mean, realistically, if you bought

Mark Gammie: a five grand car and shipped it, you’re gonna need to sell it for 10 to 12. But they don’t exist over there. Yes, yes. So

Jon Summers: I think you could. Realistic. Yes. The only way you can justify that kind of value is if yours is the only one.

That’s why once I saw TVs on cars and bids, I was like, I, it’s over now. It needs to be something weird. [00:31:00] Like, you know, per, people have Pergo five oh fives here, so like a 4 0 5 wagon, you know, something like that. Diesel, all of that isn’t that. There’s the European website. Of used cars where you can surf like across Europe, Europe wide.

It’s like auto trade for Europe. I can’t remember the name of the app. I’m looking at it on my phone now.

Mark Gammie: Auto Scout 24. It’s like yellow highlighted than, then it says Scout 24, but on. So

Jon Summers: yeah, that’s like Europe wide. And for an Amer for American market, that’s better ’cause they’re left hand drive cars.

Well yeah,

Mark Gammie: absolutely. How old do they need to be?

Jon Summers: 25 years.

Yeah, because everything’s gonna go the way of minis, isn’t it? You know, the way classic minis are like, you can’t fucking look at one for less than five grand. And you were like, what? I remember when those bits of shit were like 500 quid. The other thing with ’em is, is they all get gussied up in a totally unrealistic way.

[00:32:00] Everyone you look at has got like some G jaw on it that it didn’t originally have. Don’t look like they look like imper. This is a pet peeve for mine.

It is a bit like old Peter Mullin, isn’t it? Who did the big gatis? Like other people had done the Italian cars. You’re not gonna touch the German factories for their own collections of cars. But the French stuff, that was an open field and because Reno and per. I’ve sort of been here but haven’t been here for ages.

There’s a sort of enough of a thing there.

Mark Gammie: Okay, so there’s a bunch of clear Williams’s. I did it by price, height, or low, and they’re all in the 25,000 euro range, but there’s a bunch of them. If you could make money knocking out Cle Williams’ in the US for, say. 40 to 50,000. Then there’s a bunch wicked ship over that feels pretty steep.

It is a limited addition Uber like hot hatch [00:33:00] of the hot hatch.

Jon Summers: Yeah. I don’t know why. I’d have to see what the, what Americans are paying for Delta into grows. They’re that horse that’s already left the building, so to speak. Yeah, yeah. No, I understand. It is funny with those Delta Integral, you know, I don’t wanna be funny or offend people and there’s, you know, I bloody love Lanier and I just wanna say that Divvy book, Lanier at the Center is probably the single best car book ever produced.

I, I mean that absolutely. Jeffrey Goldberg, the books like $200. Spend it. If you love car books, do Lio Lancer at the center is, is really, I love Lancer, right? I mean, skyline or intergra. I mean, are you kidding me? Pasti or steak dinner like the pasti. Nice if you’re hungry on the street in the rain, but thanks.

I’ll sit in with a steak dinner and I will have red wine with it. Thank you very much. You know, that’s how I’m, how I feel about skylines. I mean, then have the best interior. It’s maybe a bit of a, you know. Toby’s pub [00:34:00] kind of estate. They’re so cool. Guidelines, they’re so fucking cool. Which era? Which era is yours?

Then if you have just won the lottery and my son has said to you, I’m probably doing an R 34 or something like that, I love the Ken Mary’s, but in this instant, if it was my money, I think the R 30 fours are so undervalued. So undervalued. R 30 threes are as well.

Mark Gammie: It’s always been tough to find a clean one, isn’t it?

But like still, who

Jon Summers: cares? I, I mean, agreed To me, it’s like steelworth. I want one that has a story and that’s been done in a tasteful way. If it was wrecked. Years ago, and if now it’s been rebuilt and inspected and at shows, and you know, I can see how the shut lines are. I’ll take that car over the Oh no stories.

I, I, yeah. No, I know what you mean. You get so much more car for your money if you do that. Oh, agreed. Yeah, I mean it’s, it’s about picking the right car. I’m not saying I want some tasteless, modified thing and there’s plenty of those out there.

Mark Gammie: [00:35:00] And then really Japanese doing their own thing, their own way.

Garum, it was, for me, it was the first sort of time they really had sort of proper impact in cars. You could argue other cars that one, the bond drove that he couldn’t, that Sean Connery couldn’t, they had to have the roof down ’cause his head wouldn’t fit in it. He was

Jon Summers: too tall. Um, first million dollar Japanese car.

Yeah. Yeah. That’s

Mark Gammie: a cutest top cut. I mean, you know, there’s no, you,

Jon Summers: you rate that, do you? Oh, it’s pretty. I don’t know whether it’s any good, but it’s pretty. So this is the Toyota 2000 s or S 2000, or, I mean, it’s sort of the same name as the Honda, but I can, that was the first million dollar Japanese car that, believe it or not.

Yeah. And, and you can see why. It’s just a, it’s a pretty little car, but I wouldn’t have one. One. It’s a crown. It’s a crown in line six with a Yamaha cylinder head on it. The wood interior was done by Yamaha as well. So what I always say about those whenever I see ’em, is the best bits of Yamaha, aren’t they not Toyota, I mean.

Good for Toyota hiring Yamaha,

Mark Gammie: but Oh [00:36:00] yeah, for sure. And look, you know, people who sneer might sneer a Yamaha. Remember Yamaha make pianos and they’re some of the most beautiful pianos. Oh, sneering at Yamaha for that. No, no, you’re not. I think other, anybody you might be,

Jon Summers: I’m saying the best bit of Toyota is is the Yamaha motorcycle cylinder dad on that Toyota Crown motor.

It’s, it’s really, uh, and I guess I’ve got a soft spot for Yamaha in engines. I never buy Yamaha motorcycles, but apart from the Zuma, which is slightly accepted, prove the rule. But you remember that black Ford mon, you remember it extremely well, that we had, this had the Dira Tech V six, that was a Yamaha design motor.

That V six was a Yamaha design motor and that like had no oil in it. We’d still rev to six grand and we put like, you know, six and a half grand. We put 6,000 miles on that car B. And, you know, rode it hard at 160,000 miles and that Yamaha motor was just coming back for more. So, well, I have plenty of time for, uh, for Yamaha, of course, the other Japanese car from that period, right?

That I rate more than that. Toyota is the Mazda Cosmo. [00:37:00] Do you know that car? Rings a bell. Yeah, it’s a sort of swoopy science fiction-y shape.

Mark Gammie: I know. I was gonna say again, with Mazda, I, I’ve got space for Mazda in my life on the basis of their ruthless, pursue all of like two totally different engine tech.

We’re gonna do Kel engine. No one else is gonna do it. We’re gonna do it anyway. And then we’re gonna deliver you an RX seven. Yeah. And yeah, so they eat oil. Come

Jon Summers: on.

Mark Gammie: Yeah.

Jon Summers: I, I’ll take Mazda in a moment. I just want to go back to Toyota quickly. Mm-hmm. I just wanna say, you know, I have slated the 2000 there or whatever, that million dollar bond car, but I do wanna say the Toyota seven.

Sports car that they built, which wasn’t really compared to for only race domestically. That is, that’s one of the most beautiful cars ever designed. Love that shape, have a little model. Oh, well it’s just like a wing with a, with a big wing on a sticks

Mark Gammie: behind it.

Jon Summers: Yes.

Mark Gammie: The white one. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a great car.

Obviously. I’ve raced that in Grand. It’s a great guy.

Jon Summers: Yes. So, so we’re, we’re gonna, and, and the ra in Fast and Furious and all that, you know, [00:38:00] Toyota, that’s credit where, uh, where credit is due with, uh, with Toyota. And for you and for you. Whipper snappers. Carlos signs, the father signs rallied with Toyota, didn’t he?

With those? Oh yeah. Sika GT fours. That’s the one. And, and younguns, you can spot the GT four ’cause it’s not got, just got the hood scoop. It’s got the hood scoop with the hole. Mm-hmm. In the side for the intercooler or, or whatever it was, wasn’t it? Yeah. And the extra

Mark Gammie: exhaust at the back. Absolutely. Yeah.

Cracking the GT fours. And of course that Sega virtual rally game of course, which was in many an arcade, two players sitting side by side. One of them was a ska GT four was, was it VV vr? Rally v

Jon Summers: Dreamcast. Ever drive a real GT four. No, I would’ve liked to have done, I never drove a real GT four. I, I mean, would that one of those, or an intergra?

I’d probably have the intergra. I’ve had to choose. Oh, yeah, me too. I didn’t last after the time. I’m not as, I’m not as excited about those Intergra, I mean, I’ve [00:39:00] already said that, but like if I compare how I feel about that versus something like Sierra XR four I, or let alone a Sierra Cosworth agreed.

Mark, thank you for your time. Pleasure. Thank you. Drive through.

Crew Chief Eric: This episode has been brought to you by Grand Touring Motorsports as part of our Motoring Podcast network. For more episodes like this, tune in each week for more exciting and educational content from organizations like The Exotic Car Marketplace, the Motoring Historian, break Fix, and many others. If you’d like to support Grand Touring Motor Sports and the Motoring Podcast Network, sign up for one of our many sponsorship tiers at www.patreon.com/gt Motorsports.

Please note that the content, opinions and materials presented and expressed in this [00:40:00] episode are those of its creator, and this episode has been published with their consent. If you have any inquiries about this program, please contact the creators of this episode via email or social media as mentioned in the episode.

Skip ahead if you must… Here’s the highlights from this episode you might be most interested in and their corresponding time stamps.

• 00:00 Introduction & Welcome
• 00:43 Anecdote: Ollie’s Karting Adventure
• 05:11 Discussing Racecraft and Techniques
• 08:57 Exploring California Roads
• 11:44 Debating Peak Cars
• 21:42 Debating Traction Control
• 24:24 Motorbike Traction Control and Safety Aids
• 25:43 Exciting New Cars and Tech
• 27:08 Hot Hatches and European Imports
• 33:11 Classic Japanese Cars and Their Appeal
• 37:26 Toyota’s Iconic Models
• 39:10 Conclusion and Credits